Open discussion

[Vorak]

I remember it was a bad day for me...

I was at work, no radio or no TV, so I had no idea what was going on.  Then a friend of me messaged me on my phone and wrote me what had happened.  I called him immediately, and he was saying like "its gonna be war! it's gonna be war" and it scared me.
Then my colleague from work called (she was already at home and saw it on TV, and called me to tell me because my girlfriend lives in the US).
And I got really scared, I didn't know what was going on, and what else those terrorists had planned, and most of all I was scared for my girlfriend, even though she lives in Massachusetts, but at that time we didn't know what other targets there were because not all airplanes were accounted for yet.
I know I cried on the phone when I called my friend and talked about it, while I was still at work. I cried because I was afraid of what might happen.
I came home thereafter and put on the TV and saw the horrible video recordings of the attacks, and I cried even more, not only because I was scared for my girlfriend, because that fear had gotten less a bit at that point since nothing was VERY near to her, but also for the horror and the many deaths that this attack has caused.
And I was never more relieved than that day to hear from my girlfriend and to hear her tell me that she was okay... and actually didn't know what had happened yet because she too had not yet put on TV or radio at that time.

[Vorak]

Yes I believe that the US had to REACT indeed.  But HOW to react is of the greatest importance of all... and not only to the US, but to the WHOLE world.

So, the US must defend itself? Yes.
The US must continue attacks after the defence? No.

A line must be drawn somewhere, and I understand that you must defend yourself. Not out of revenge, but out of self-preservation.  But simply creating war yourself is never justified, no matter the reasons.

[Valory]

Clinton was better president, but let's not get into that.  That's a whole other can of worms.  I'm afraid of going to war with Iraq becuase of all the things we don't know about, like the type of weapons they have developed that the UN didnt get to inspect.

[Strider]

Hate and rage? Perhaps that is true of some. The president? He is not doing it out of hate. You are purposely blinding yourself to the real reasons. I will try once to explain it to you in plain english.

Think, what if it was the Capitol of Germany, Swedon, or perhaps Russia? Your nation would do everything in its power to stop the people that did it. Even hunting them down and killing them, (don't give me the hogwash about how you wouldn't) simply so they could not do it again...to ANYONE. In fact (but most are to blind to see), America is doing the world a favor. The world's response? A slap to the face. Well, I can say I have a pretty good idea how Jesus felt when the Jews crucified him.

[Hedford]

Last time I watched the news..I saw that the Dutch government had accepted a plan to support the actions of the USA, to act against Iraq.
A lot of people were suprised, including me, because we don't think that violence is solved with violence.
If the USA would attack Iraq, Sadam would probably attack too. And that attack would be logically in Europe, because it's closer and this is the ally of the USA.
It was good that they chased Bin Laden, but there are also casualties that didn't had to be.
The USA wants to play the big boss, but they aren't it. It acts like a little child, gimme gimme and if he doesn't get it he(USA) will hit(=Attack) the other one.
Bush was the wrong choice in the USA, he is just one big loser.

[Vorak]

I know a man, and he may not always be fair in all his doings. He's a street musician who lives not far away from me. And for your extra information, he's catholic.

One day, he wandered into a street where he wanted to play music, to earn a bit of money.  But another man was already playing there.  Street musician's courtesy asks that he requests permission from the other man first if he can play music a bit further.
And so he did ask that other street musician if he was ok with it.  However, the other one reacted aggressively and punched him hard on the nose.
And so he decided to leave, for his own safety because he's not much of a fighter.

Months later, he was walking on a market, to find a place to play music again.  And guess who he finds there... the man that punched him before.  He's not much of a fighter so he could have tried to avoid the man and walk around him...
but he did not do such thing...
he walked up straight to the man until he faced the man right before him.  The man was about to react aggressively again towards him, until he spoke and told him: "i know you're angry with me, and i don't know why, but i don't mean to fight you. I forgive you for punching me and I will even be your friend if you let me."
At that moment, the other man could have done to him what he wanted; he was totally vulnerable and had no means to defend himself.
But after those words, the other man did not attack him any more, but stared at him with wide eyes...

he had created an opening.
He had not fought violence, with violence.  He had not fought anger, with anger.  He had fought the negative with the positive, and he managed BALANCE.

And from this simple street musician, the US Government can learn alot...

[Vorak]

You didn't say you DO understand the point of view either.  Because I fear that you are a minority with your point of view.
Most people don't want this war. But their options are not heard. And i'm afraid that the others will realize this when it's already too late for everyone....

[Tomas Goransson]

Indeed, Varlory.

I just remembered something, this is a forum to honor the ones that dies in WTC a year ago, not to fight with eatchother. Can´t we open a forum that is dedicated to writing bad words to someone? Instead of writing them in here? I know that you might think I am "hogwashing", but I just say what I think.

And I am also a christian, more precisely, a protestantic christian. But I see no reason for Bush to continue his "crusade" against terrorism. He will not suceed. Not as long as there are peoples that think diffirently with eathother.

Bush are a wright-extreme-christian. That means that he thinks that he are actually fighting the evil here. He has wrong. Sure, it might be, fun to solve everything with your carriers and subs and troops. But is it efficient and ethichal? I really don´t know. But I do know that if we not stop with this behavior it will soon probably make World War 3. An experience I really do not want to have...

[Vorak]

This forum has been opened temporary, in memory of the tragic events on Sept 11, 2001.
Most RPG boards close their board on that day, but though their reason is noble, I did not want to copy their idea, so I open this forum instead.
Here you can openly discuss everything you want about this topic, and about a week after Sept 11, this forum will be removed again and the largest topics moved to the OFF-game forum.

[Valory]

I think we were patriotic and united for a moment in time and now we were almost exactly like we were befor it happened, nothing has changed really.  The documentaries are starting to trickle in on tv, even music stations like MTV are reliving the experience.  I'm not sure I can handle watching a single moment of that day.

[Dalen Winterspoon]

That is very honorable from you, Valory. And I congrat you for your intervention.
But, as this is described in the Christian Bilble :
"There is a time for war. And there is a time for peace......"
And so on.
I know that Al'Qaeda (and all countries supporting Al'Qaeda) is a Major Threat for the World. But, sometimes making the Choice for Peace is more courageous than making the Choice for War. When you have achieved your Goal in Seeking Justice, then War has no reason no more to continue.....

I remember this sentence that someone gave me, when I was younger :
"There are always many solutions to a problem. The most important is to find the good ONE."

[Nocturnus]

What scares me is 4 words
"Weapons of Mass DESTRUCTION"

are we really stupid enough to attack a country that has the potential firepower to wipe out coutries?

IF America bombs Iraq we will all be involved weather we like it or not.

The UN's hand will be forced regardless of what they say because "IRAQ" will retaliate.

[Tomas Goransson]

Good point David. I also liked Clinton more then I like Bush. But as Valory said: That is not the point. The point is, that it seems like Bush and Blair are against all the world. Not in a war perhaps, but sure on a political stage. Sure, Hussein may have biological weapons, some may say he did not used them since the gulf war, that is also wrong. But, an attack is not a solution. If USA and UK attacks, what will the casualties then be? 1000? 3000? Or maybee 10 000? In my oppinion it is not a whery good solution to invade Iraq, even if I do understand why the americans wants to do it.

This is actually kind of similar to a thing back in 1962: The Cuba crisis. I know it is not the same, but the goverment of America still had a though problem to solve. Their solution maybee not was the best, but it was with less dead persons then if they should have attacked. In my opinion I´d say that Bush and co should try to freeze all the supplyes Hussein gets instead of attacking the country itself. USA is indeed a superpower that not care so much about the rest of the worlds opinion, so I think they cpuild easily do that. And further, I think that the world should suport Bush if he did so instead of invade the co8ntry.

NBut then we have my personal opinion: Bush want to be remembered just as his father. So: Let´s start the Dessert Storm all over again!!! Yahoo! He will indeed be remembered! But for what?

[Tomas Goransson]

Excuse me, but it is spelled Usama bin Ladin. It actually is.

And, that was just what you said. You did the worl a favor when you kills all the terrorists. Witch reminds me of the movie, Full Metal Jacket. They are in a chopper in Nam, a guy sitting and shooting women and choldren, another guy ask him how he can shoor them. He answer: If they run, they´r a VC, if they stand still, they´re a well-disciplined VC!

USA seems to think the same way.

[Tomas Goransson]

Yes, unfortunatly, there are one more thing in this situation: Pride.